Lyn: Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, Cosmere Scholars and Sanderson Fans! We’ve got a hefty chapter for you this week, full of lore, an Honorblade, a world-hopper, old friendships, and…
Wrestling matches? That’s right, in this corner, weighing in at 250 pounds (I guess, maybe, because who’s gonna dare to ask him for his weight): The Storm from Alethkar! The Scourge of the Rift (too soon?)! The Highprince with the tight butt! Dalinar Kholin, the BLAAAAAAACKTHOOOOOOOORN! And in the other corner….
Well. You’ll just have to read on to find out!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. If you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
There are also some small mentions of a world-hopper from Warbreaker in the Cosmere Connections section, so steer clear of that part if you haven’t read that book yet.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.3.4 (the day after Chapter 15, three days after the spanreed conversations with other monarchs.)
The chapter begins with Dalinar having a little chat with the Stormfather about the Honorblades and the oaths the Knights Radiant had sworn. He hides the Honorblade Kaladin reclaimed from Szeth in an old sewer drain and heads off the practice grounds, where he discovers that his ardents aren’t terribly pleased by with his wedding to Navani. He engages in a friendly wrestling match with the son of a friend, then tells Navani that he’d like to hold his meeting with the Iarali Queen in the practice yard. While conducting his meeting, Dalinar spars with old comrade and now-ardent Kadash, who is upset about what he sees as Dalinar’s sacrilege. After the meeting/sparring match, Navani asks Dalinar about something and he hears a name long forgotten…
Threshold of the storm
Title: Wrapped Three Times
The belt was too tight, wrapped three times—you had to pull it hard to get enough slack to tie the knot.
Alice: This is from Dalinar’s story about his swordmaster insisting that the belt on his takama had to be wrapped three times around the waist, but when he finally found his master’s master’s master, it turned out he was a rather small fellow. (Why do I get an image of Yoda stuck in my head at this point?) The standard takama belt was too long, and if he only wrapped it twice like most people, he tripped over it. We’ve probably all heard the story in some form, right? (The version I grew up with was “Why do you always cut one end off the ham?” “So it would fit in the pot.”) But it makes a great point: tradition can be based on some pretty sketchy things, and it’s worth searching out the truth.
Heralds
All four are Ishar, Herald of luck and patron of the Order of Bondsmiths. Attributes: Pious and Guiding. Role: Priest. Also the dude who organized the spren bonding into the Knights Radiant orders.
A: There are several possibilities here: Dalinar is a Bondsmith, obviously. He also interacts with the ardents (who heartily disapprove of him) and in particular Kadash, who is torn between friendship and theology. In addition, sometimes the heralds are there to show up something that is the opposite of their traditional role, so we also have Dalinar questioning whether Honor was really God.
Icon
Kholin glyph pair, as befitting a Dalinar chapter.
Epigraph
For in this comes the lesson. –From Oathbringer, Preface
A: Well, that’s loaded.
Stories & Songs
The Knights, the Stormfather said in his head, broke their oaths. They abandoned everything they’d sworn, and in so doing killed their spren. Other blades are the corpses of those spren, which is why they scream at your touch. This weapon, instead, was made directly from Honor’s soul, then given to the Heralds. It is also the mark of an oath, but of a different type–and does not have the mind to scream on its own.
L: This raises the question, if the regular shardblade spren are DEAD, how do they scream? I suppose this is answered for us later on when Adolin begins to reawaken Maya, but I find it interesting that Dalinar didn’t ask about that.
A: Syl explained it to Kaladin (sort of) in WoR, and Dalinar had his own Blade screaming at him, so presumably they talked about what happens. The spren has to be revived in order to manifest in the Physical realm, so then it’s… sort of alive. Enough to scream if you have the connection to hear it, anyway.
Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even… frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.
L: That’s a terrifying thought. I can’t imagine being angry, without any change, for such a long period of time. I suppose it’s not productive to try to hold human ideals to a force like Odium, but even so…
With [the Honorblade], you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.
L: Well that’s an interesting little snippet. What other powers do these things convey upon their users?! We never saw Szeth use anything more than a normal Windrunner could, did we?
A: No, I don’t believe we did. Is it possible that the Stone Shamans don’t know about all the powers the Honorblades bestow, and so don’t train to use the extended abilities? Or is it that they do know, and keep that part secret? Either way, there’s clearly more going on with the Honorblades than we’ve been shown. Yet.
The Stormfather had also confirmed that it could work on Oathgates, which might prove handy.
L: No kidding. Being able to let just anyone activate an Oathgate if all your Knights are busy elsewhere would be a great thing. It would have to be someone you trusted implicitly, though, because otherwise leaving it in the hands of an untrained regular person would be just asking for the thing to be stolen.
The Thrill. Soldiers spoke of it in the quiet of the night, over campfires. That battle rage unique to the Alethi. Some called it the power of their ancestors, others the true mindset of the soldier. … He couldn’t remember feeling the Thrill in months–and the longer he’d been apart from it, the more he’d begun to recognize that there was something profoundly wrong about the Thrill.
L: Unique to the Alethi, eh? Is this just because the Unmade who creates it happened to take up residence in Alethkar, or is there something specifically about the Alethi that invites it, do you think?
A: We know it’s not really limited to Alethi, since we learn later that the Vedans felt it during their civil war. I suspect it might be a combination of things; the first is obviously the proximity of Nergaoul, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were some kind of genetic susceptibility, too.
L: So we’ve got a chicken and the egg scenario here; which came first, the Alethi predisposition towards violence, or Nergaoul? Did he come to them because they were already heading in that direction and he could just heighten their society’s already warlike nature, or is their culture irrevocably changed by an outside force?
Relationships & Romances
Navani raised an eyebrow at him, but ordered her assistants to get out their writing materials. A worried ardent came over, perhaps to try to dissuade her—but after a few firm orders from Navani, he went running to get her a bench and table.
A: I love the way Navani chooses her battles, and in public she chooses not to have battles with her husband. In this case, she clearly disagreed with Dalinar about staying where they were to carry on the conversation with the Iriali queen, but she chose to go along with it. And once she decided to go along with it, no mere ardent—or anyone else—is going to get her to change a thing about it. I think one of her greatest strengths is deciding what hills are worth the battle—and who she’ll fight. She chose not to argue with Dalinar here, for a number of possible reasons. But one thing she categorically refuses to do is argue with the ardents—she just gives firm orders and expects to be obeyed. And she is.
It was hard to remember the ardent as one of his elites. They hadn’t been close then; they’d only become so during Kadash’s years as an ardent.
***
“I remember, Kadash,” Dalinar said, “when you weren’t nearly so judgmental.”
***
Kadash had the haunted eyes of a soldier. When he dueled, he kept watch to the sides, in case someone tried to flank him.
***
“Surprised someone is willing to side with evil, Dalinar? That someone would pick darkness, superstition, and heresy instead of the Almighty’s light?”
L: Hoo boy. Someone’s a little bitter.
A: A little bitter, yes, but with a certain amount of rationale:
“…What happened to the ardent I knew? A man who had lived a real life, not just watched the world from high towers and monasteries?”
“He’s frightened,” Kadash said softly. “That he’s somehow failed in his most solemn duty to a man he deeply admires.”
A: Kadash has had two commitments which, until now, have always been in harmony: serving Dalinar, and serving the Almighty. Or at least… serving what the Vorin church said about the Almighty. Now Dalinar’s statements have destroyed that harmony and forced him to choose between the two, and that’s a painful spot for a straightforward man like Kadash. Add to that the feeling that Dalinar’s apostasy must be his fault, his failure, and of course he’s unhappy. And a little bitter.
For a moment, Dalinar saw in Kadash the man he’d always been. The gentle, understanding model of everything good about the Vorin church.
L: Interesting that he thinks of Kadash as “always” having been this way. I find it a little hard to believe that he’d have been this way back when he was in the army. But then, Dalinar DOES say that he didn’t know him well back then…
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“The power of the ones who control the new storm, however, is undeniable. They offer gracious terms.”
L: Gracious terms?! Yikes. I really have to wonder what Odium’s henchmen are promising, out there in Iri. Do they want those two Oathgates so badly that they’re willing to offer up pretty much anything to get them, or are they just planning to break whatever oaths they make once they get what they want?
A: So much mystery. We’ve figured out that local parshmen have more or less local values, which is all well and good, but… When we know almost nothing of a culture, we know nothing about what either the humans or the parshmen are trying to acheive. Very mystery.
L: Not to mention the fact they they know very little of their own culture!
Squires & Sidekicks
Clean-shaven, he was a little pale for an Alethi and had dark brown hair. Dalinar vaguely thought the man had shown up among his guards several times during the last week or so. He liked to roll a sphere across his knuckles in what Dalinar found to be a distracting way.
L: I don’t know why, but this guy (Rial) sets off warning bells in my head. We don’t usually get a ton of description for little side characters like this unless they eventually become a bigger thing, and the fact that Dalinar seems to feel like there’s something off about him makes my hair stand on end. I was totally expecting Rial to wind up being a plant or a spy by the end of the book, but he wasn’t… which means I’m still suspicious. He’s also really flippant with Dalinar, which is not a trait I think Kaladin would approve of from his bridgemen.
A: He’s one of those oddballs from Bridge Thirteen. You know how they are. ;) Seriously, though, I think he triggered that reaction in most of us. As near as I can tell, Brandon was just messing with us; we’ve come to expect Something Nasty from every new person who gets a description, so now he’s going to give us some completely innocuous characters and let us wonder about them.
L: ::eyes Rial suspiciously::
A: We learned a while back that Bridge Thirteen had replaced Bridge Four as Dalinar’s primary guard detail, since Bridge Four was apparently all going to do the squire gig for Kaladin. Ironic that by the end of the book, Bridge Thirteen ends up all becoming squires to Teft. Wonder who Dalinar is going to get stuck with next? And will they all become squires to Lopen?
Places & Peoples
Dalinar owned ardents who were experts in all manner of specialties, and per tradition any man or woman could come to them and be apprenticed in a new skill or trade.
L: This is really interesting. ANY man or woman? There’s no restrictions on social standing or sex? This must just be a Dalinar thing, because the rest of Alethi society sure hasn’t seemed this open-minded towards darkeyes or women. I really have to wonder what would happen if a darkeyed woman came to one of the swordmasters and demanded to become an apprentice…
A: We’ve run across this concept before—that anyone can come to the ardents for training. The biggest functional restriction is the simple ability to travel, and that’s not an insignificant difficulty. Assuming you can come up with the money to travel to where there are ardents capable of teaching what you want to know, though, there are still societal restrictions, such as the prohibition against darkeyes using swords. We did see ardents, however reluctantly, training Kaladin & his men to use swords, but they’re still restricted to actually carrying spears.
Basically, it’s a guarantee that you can learn a skill or trade other than what was available to you at home; there’s no guarantee that you’ll be able to use that skill, but you can learn it. I doubt most people would waste their opportunity by demanding to be taught a skill they’d never be able to use, though. The whole point is to be able to make a living, after all.
Among Iri’s three monarchs, currently two kings and a queen, the latter had authority over foreign policy, so she was the one they needed to talk to.
L: THREE monarchs? This is fascinating. Seeing as how one specifically has authority of foreign policy, I wonder what the other two have authority over? And can this even be technically called a monarchy, if the rule of governance is split amongst three people?
A: Well, technically, no—since the roots of the word imply one person ruling.
“It is with wondrous awe at the grandeur of the One that I approach you. The time for the world to undergo a glorious new experience has arrived.”
L: Ugh. It’s so flowery. And yet somehow also… unsettling.
A: I so much want to know more about this culture, and I have zero expectation of learning it any time soon.
“All experience is welcome,” came the reply. “We are the One experiencing itself–and this new storm is glorious even if it brings pain.”
L: Seems very Zen to me. I can sort of get behind this idea—I’ve certainly had experiences which caused me a great deal of pain, and those experiences helped me to better understand both myself and others who might be in similar situations. However…
“Perhaps the way to prevent another Desolation is to let the Voidbringers take what they wish. From our histories, sparse though they are, it seems that this was the one option men never explored. An experience from the One we rejected.”
L: This is taking it a bit far. I mean… they don’t know that they’d be turning over their own people to slavery or worse, but… it’s a pretty good bet.
A: Er… Ummm… Nope. Not without some very clear limits on that “take what they wish” part!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Yes, what every wife loves,” Navani said. “Seeing that in his spare time, her husband likes to roll around on the floor with half-naked, sweaty men.”
L: Welllllll I meeaaaaaan……… You know what, I’ll just leave it at that and say that Navani Kholin is still a treasure.
“I would prefer to give this task to another, as I don’t particularly feel–”
“Tough,” Dalinar said. “I need some practice, Kadash.”
Weighty Words
“And Shardplate?” Dalinar asked.
Related, but different, the Stormfather rumbled. You haven’t spoken the oaths required to know more.
L: So Shardplate musn’t have its own highspren, then, since Knights can still wear it without hearing screaming. Later on in the book when Kaladin seems to be about to gain his, we see the windspren forming around him—going theory is that they would eventually become his Plate. The lower spren that are associated with whichever the higher spren is for each order, presumably, would be the ones forming the Plate. If this is true, did those lower spren not die when the Knights forsook their oaths? Are they still trapped in Plate-form?
A: My best guess is that “trapped” isn’t quite the right word. When a piece of Plate gets destroyed, it regrows, and my current theory is that it regrows directly via the Cognitive realm, as the lesser spren regather and shape themselves back into Plate. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it’s not necessarily the same spren, either—just the same variety, drawn to the “seed” of the existing plate and willingly forming into the needed shapes. I’m not sure you can call it “willing” if the spren have no inherent will of their own, but the point is that I don’t believe they’re coerced. It’s just what they do, like water condensing on cold glass.
“What of the thing we fight? Odium, the origin of the Voidbringers and their spren. Can he break oaths?”
No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. Those things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he.
L: There’s a lot of Big Stuff going on in this little exchange. Big Stuff that I’m mostly going to leave to Alice because let’s face it, I’m not the Cosmere theory-crafter of the two of us.
A: I love this little passage! There’s so much Cosmere truth buried in it. We’ll learn more about this concept later, and we’ll talk about different aspects then, but this subject has come up several times recently. Odium, like Stormfather, like the spren, and like natural laws, simply cannot break certain rules. The way things are is, well, the way things are.
I think this holds the key to why Kaladin almost killed Syl in WoR; as a spren, she cannot bend or break the Ideals that form the Windrunner bond. It’s not that she’s too stubborn to stretch the rules a little, or even that she’s unreasonably demanding that he do what she wants. It’s simply, totally, inherently impossible for her to maintain a bond when her human doesn’t live by the Ideals that bind them together. She’s not “punishing” Kaladin by withdrawing her powers; even though he doesn’t understand how it works, his inability to remain committed to his Ideals damages the bond—blocks the pipes, in a manner of speaking. I have to assume that the old Knights Radiant had some understanding of this, and it would have been part of the training to learn about how the bond functions.
In a much later conversation, the Stormfather will make a distinction we need to keep in mind: humans don’t have oath-keeping built into their very being the way pieces of Adonalsium do, and so the two will never quite be able to understand each other.
“…even if the claim weren’t disputed, the queen doesn’t have any actual relation to Evi or her brother.”
L: Reaction gif time.
A: I thought this was so masterfully done. Assuming you didn’t know her name your first time through, you read it, and then there’s a “Wait, what?” moment, just before Dalinar’s … and then you catch it, just before the next bit, and the adrenaline, it does rush:
Memories blossomed in Dalinar’s head. He staggered, then slumped against the writing table, feeling as if he’d been struck by a hammer to the head.
Evi. He could hear his wife’s name.
And he suddenly remembered her face.
L: The only appropriate reaction gif for this.
Cosmere Connections
WARNING: Spoilers in this section for Warbreaker. You may wish to skip this section if you haven’t read it.
One man still lounged on his cushion. He wore a scruffy beard and clothing that seemed an afterthought–not dirty, but ragged, belted with rope.
“Not offended by my presence, Zahel?” Dalinar asked.
“I’m offended by everyone’s presence. You’re no more revolting than the rest, Mister Highprince.”
L: Well hello there, Vasher! How are you today? An interesting note, here; the word “mister” hasn’t been used at all in either Way of Kings or Words of Radiance. So here’s yet another clue that this guy’s from Somewhere Else. But we still don’t know why he’s here. Hunting down NIghtblood, perhaps? He sure seems to have been here for a long time, long enough to have earned entry into the ardentia and gained Dalinar’s trust. Alice, you’re just coming off the Warbreaker Reread, whereas it’s been years since I read it. What do you think?
A: Well… I think he and Nightblood came here together, and somehow in the transition or in the early years, Nightblood was stolen. I have the impression that Vasher came to Roshar so as to avoid the constant requirement of buying people’s Breath all the time; like he spent too much time around Vivenna and started to feel more guilt about holding other people’s Breath, or something. But who knows, maybe Nightblood misbehaved once too often, so Vasher decided to take him and move to Roshar where Nightblood could collect more Investiture without taking so much from people. I can’t help wondering when and why they got separated, but I don’t think we’re going to get that answer for a while yet.
“Every moment in our lives seems trivial,” Zahel said. “Most are forgotten while some, equally humble, become the points upon which history pivots. Like white on black.”
L: First of all, this is a really cool quote. Secondly, there’s our definitive hint that Zahel’s from Warbreaker, in case some readers didn’t pick up on it in Words of Radiance—the use of color metaphors are a dead giveaway.
“Lighteyed self-indulgence or serious sacrilege, either way it doesn’t affect me.”
L: Well, yeah. Because you’re not even from this world. Of course sacrilege to their god(s) isn’t going to matter to you. (Not that Vasher ever really seemed the pious type even on his own world…)
Quality Quotations
In a way, the death of their god gave him hope—for it Honor had fallen, surely Odium could as well.
* * *
“I was merely one in a long line of idiots given the ability to kill people too easily.”
Well, that’s all for this week! Next week we’ll be going over chapter 17 by itself, since chapter 18’s a pretty long one. Join us in the comment section for more discussion about Warbreaker, theories, and wrestling!
Alice is, finally, mostly recovered from her adventures with eighth-graders. It was fun, but they have way more energy than she does!
Lyndsey is excited to be playing the role of “Ellen”-a-Dale at this year’s Robin Hood’s Faire in Lancaster, MA! If you live in New England, stop by some weekend and help her and the other Merry Men make a fool out of the Sheriff of Nottingham. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
So are you suggesting that Blackthorn weighs 250 on Roshar or that he would weigh 250 on Earth or Scadriel?
The Evi thing was definitely an “oh bleep” moment for me, too. It was not only something we’ve been waiting to learn, but it broke all the rules I thought I knew about the Nightwatcher.
I love crotchety old Vasher, his metaphors using words from a different planet crack me up! It leaves the Rosharians so puzzled!
No mention of Aratin (spelling?) Kahl, General Kahl’s second son? We had those talks about how small families are (having for examples the Kholins and Kaladin’s family) and yet, here within this chapter, we find out General Khal has at least two sons. We know from WoR he has a daughter. Later, we found out about yet another son: how many more sons do the old general got hidden somewhere?
This being said, Aratin cracked me up. The physical description Brandon gave him just made me smile: beefy man with a too small head for his body, more of a wrestler than a duelist? I thought it was funny.
On another set of ideas, I found Dalinar insisting to be sparring while discussing with the Iriali Queen was a complete lack of respect, it was inappropriate and downright idiotic. Now, I understand Navani wants to stand next to her husband, but I wished she had insisted on him not going on with this folly. If only because it is, once again, incredibly disrespectful. If I were the Iriali Queen and if I even found out about this, I would lose every single shred of respect I might still have for Dalinar Kholin.
You do not duel while engaging into a political discussion. It shows you do not find your interlocutor worthy enough of your time and your respect. Really. I expected more out of Navani here. Being Dalinar’s wife shouldn’t mean bowing down to his every idiocy. She ought to have insisted for a proper meeting.
I was however very curious about Evi’s Shardplate, where it comes from and why Dalinar is being accused of having stolen it. As far as we know, Evi stole it, not Dalinar. He just married her which isn’t, as far as we know, a breach in the legal system. Besides, this Plate does not even belong to Dalinar, it belongs to Adolin and it has belonged to him since the day he was born. It is not his to give away. So how does this makes Dalinar a thief? Surely the Iriali Queen must know who carries the Plate and who actually owns it: it isn’t Dalinar.
During the re-read, I remember half-wishing Dalinar would force Adolin to give away his Plate in an attempt to forge an alliance. I’m still a little bummed we didn’t go down this road, instead all talk of Evi’s dubious past and the Shardplate stolen out of Rira disappeared from the narrative.
But I still want to know.
On the matter of Shardblade, this chapter go myself and some other readers wondering if Dalinar wouldn’t be the one to revive his Shardblade as opposed to Adolin…. Brandon loves Red Herring and, when it comes to Adolin, basically everything interesting about his character eventually turns into a Red Herring. I am still not convinced it will be him to perform the impossible feat. This is a narrative I still have no idea where Brandon is going: it is supposed to near impossible and yet, it was unbelievably easy for Adolin to make progress. Where is the difficulty?
Any deals the voidbringers made with the Iri I could not see them breaking. Odium we have seen time and again holds to the letter of oaths, but the letter that benefits him. So the voidbringers would keep to whatever deal they made, but the Iri may get more than they bargained for in the end.
As to the tradition of anyone going to the ardents for training. I agree. Like being able to kill a shardbearer makes you an automatic lighteyes, it is a tradition, but one that may not be fully enforced. If a light eyes doesn’t want his darkeyed peasants thinking higher than their position, he or she may make reaching said ardents very difficult. Perhaps keeping them in a separate area which would prevent darkeyes from traveling there as was pointed out.
Finally I like the wrestling scene because it shows Dalinar attempting to grow, while also exhibiting growing pains. He is trying to become the diplomat with the apple while his instincts still cause him to reach for the stick. But he still is trying. He admonishes himself over the wrestling match, and continues to strive. I feel this is a glimmer of his work towards his third oath “I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”
I like when Brandon uses simple phrases: “like white on black.” The language is so mundane but in relation to what was said before, it’s extremely vivid. Thanks for the run through, enjoyable as always!
Also, there do be critters here, I see.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e1714
Vasher and NB got separated after they got to Roshar
It is pretty interesting that Iriali monarchy(?) seems to be modelled on how the Bondsmiths used to operate, IMHO. We know that they too had their spheres of responsibility – for instance, one of them always stayed with Urithiru and presumably maintained internal cohesiveness of the Radiants.
As to the generous terms given to the Iriali, I have to wonder how they jive with eventual goal of the Fused to eradicate all humans. Could it it somehow have to do with the fact that Iriali beliefs should eventually lead them to leave Roshar, more or less willingly? Would it be even practical for a whole nation of people? Are the 3 moons in truth spaceships (or magical equivalent) that brought the ancestors of Iriali to Roshar? And OTOH it is interesting how western part of the continent, where Cultivation was supposed to be more active/worshipped appears to be falling to Odium without a fight. Is it a trap? let’s hope so.
I do worry that the Stormfather may not be wholly correct about Shard’s inability to break oaths. After all, we know that at least one of them managed to do so – yes, with massive reprecussions, but still. Also, are the Shards truly unchanging? Not IMHO – in fact we were told in OB that Honor did change, and, of course there are, again, other precedents. Or is it just Odium’s anger, which is a part of his Intent that can’t change?
And something else – how does the fact that the spren can be corrupted and also that they can be successfully tortured for information coexist with their alleged inability to break oaths?
I am fairly certain that Nergaoul was parked in Alethkar on purpose, because even before the abandonment of Urithiru the majority of the Radiants used to settle there and it also was the Silver Kingdom maintaining the arts of war. It behooved Odium to keep them fractured and constantly at war with themselves after the Recreance. It is an interesting question how the Silver Kingdoms used to function with their specializations, however – human being humans it would be difficult to imagine that they never had any conflicts between the Desolations or after Aharietam – and Alethela/Alethkar would have had such a huge advantage in those that it is off that it didn’t manage to grab more territory.
Where is Ivis the sword-ardent who occasionally assisted Kaladin and his men in WoR during their sword-training? Her absence is a bit odd. Also, why didn’t Dalinar ask Zahel for a bout? Anyway, concerning the skill-training that ardents provide, I am not so sure that they’d actually teach literacy to secular men or sword-fighting to secular women if asked.
And while training issupposed to be free, they only have limited facilities and teachers, while dark-eyes mostly have to work for the living, so it would be difficult for a given person to learn a completely new trade from the ardents alone, which is why we have seen about traditional apprenticeships. I am also pretty sure that in WoR when Shallan visited the monastery donations were mentioned?
Kadash – 10 years sure is a short time for him to have obtained education necessary to be an ardent and to rise pretty high in the hierarchy.
About the Thrill being uniquely Alethi: I suspect that this is just an example of the Alethi just being provincial, and that it was never true. Didn’t Eshonai experience it, for instance?
“I thought this was so masterfully done. Assuming you didn’t know her name your first time through, you read it, and then there’s a “Wait, what?” moment, just before Dalinar’s … and then you catch it, just before the next bit, and the adrenaline, it does rush.” Oh, yeah! That definitely made me sit up and take notice.
About Zahel/Vasher/Warbreaker/Peacebringer/et cetera: he’s a Returned. I’m certain that he came to Roshar so he could continue to live without eating part of a human soul every week.
Also, he’s a Returned. Pretty much by definition he is experiencing prophetic dreams. Wouldn’t you like to know what he’s seeing?
Evi = Eve? Did she tempt Dalinar to his life-devastating sin (unintentionally)? “Eve” comes from the Ancient Hebrew for “woman”, BTW.
My jaw dropped when I realized that Dalinar heard Evi’s name and it did not appear as ShShSh in his mind.The Epigraph is appropriate in this Chapter because Dalinar tries to teach a lesson (of sorts) to Kadash. Dalinar himself receives a lesson (of sorts) from Zahel (aka Vasher).
The Epigraph is appropriate in this Chapter because Dalinar tries to teach a lesson (of sorts) to Kadash. Dalinar himself receives a lesson (of sorts) from Zahel (aka Vasher)
Lindsey: I think Nergaoul came first. IIRC, when Dalinar first saw the Midnight Essence vision, one of the KR said that he should come to the Knights for training. They provide training against the negative effects of the Thrill. In hindsight, I think the KRs of that time period new that an Unmade was the cause of the Thrill.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think it’s noteworthy that Zahel/Vasher is wearing a belt made of rope. Those of us who’ve read Warbreaker know how much he can accomplish with such a seemingly innocuous implement.
@1 soursavior I think the Nightwatcher did exactly as she said. She pruned him, when you prune you encourage new growth. Sometimes in the same direction other times it changes the path of growth…
For me, Dalinar wanting to have the meeting while sparring made sense. He is a man of battle, fighting on the front lines even when he was the general (thanks Thrill). He’s struggling deeply with this new role of bondsmith/diplomat and feels completely out of his depth. By engaging in a sparring duel, something familiar, he’s giving that side of his mind something to concentrate on, leaving him free to think more calmly on the conversation he’s having with the queen.
Also, thank you for these rereads…they help make Thursdays bearable. <3
The Alethi are the most warlike people in Roshar. That is probably why Nergaoul was mostly in Alethkar. It would be much less effective in a place like Azir. The Alethi, who forgot the real source, thought it was a special Alethi trait.
The Romans had a triumvirate of rulers (of course the word means three men, so they didn’t have a queen, and they were against having kings anyway (but that didn’t keep them from having emperors)).
Vasher is a god in his world himself. Pretending to be a priest might seem funny to him.
Anyone can learn anything from the ardents, but if you want to do something that doesn’t fit your social role you have to become an ardent to do it.
@11 snaggletoothdwoman This would be true if the Nightwatcher had been the one to grant Dalinar’s wish. She wasn’t though, Cultivation was, and revealed that She was playing a long and dangerous game by stepping in directly.
I wonder how that whole thing with the Intents having to obey oaths works what with Preservation doing Ruin dirty that one time.
Hi, back after a long hiatus. I see the citation from Stormfather about the inherent power of Jezrien’s honorblade as reinforcing the idea that Moash is being groomed as Odium’s champion. By the end of this book, he has killed a king and a herald (Jezrien) and is given the stolen Jezrien honorblade together with a new name and place of honor among the Fused, Vire? We knew that he was an accomplished and daring fighter – more accomplished with a sword than his ostensible future opponent, Kaladin. Now, we learn that the honorblade can confer more than a Windrunner’s abilities. While Stormfather wishes to keep the latter secret, Odium will not have such inhibitions. Of course, Sanderson is quite capable of leading readers to a conclusion and then overturning it in the next installment of the series. Not only is Moash/Vire not inevitably the Odium champion, but Kaladin may not become the designated Honor’s champion.
This is a theory I have seen around, but it is one I agree with. That the planets determine what kind of “magic system” is produced when interacting with a shard. Scadriel is big on metal, Nalthis on color, and Roshar in my opinion is oaths. So the shard preservation is forced towards its intent, but doesn’t mean it has to keep “oaths”. Honor changed over time because his intent became stronger and stronger. The magic of that planet is all based on oaths, so Odium, Cultivation, and Honor have to abide by them. At least that is my reading of it. (Btw yes Odium is on Braize, but any of his magic and actions on Roshar would concern bonds. Or perhaps this applies to immediate system ie Ashyn, Braize, and Roshar, while in other systems it is different)
@7: Ten years is also very considering Kadash tutored Adolin as a boy… I mean, how did this even happened considering the timeline?
@11 up until that point, we had been told that anything that happened was permanent and now we had something from (we believed) Nightwatcher that wasn’t permanent. To me it seemed like a big deal.
@18 Isn’t Adolin only around 19 right now? Ten years ago he’d have been 9 which is very much a kid.
@19 soursavior
If we are drawing on medieval history regarding knights, then a nobleman’s child would be a page at 7 years old to begin learning about weapons, running messages, basics of combat, etc.
Re: Evi – I read the Unfettered II release of the first 4 Dalinar flashbacks. Then read the beta. I loved this reveal of Evi’s name so much. I started to actively discourage people from reading Unfettered II. Because this reveal is just such a perfect moment of story telling.
A true double take moment.
Re: Rial – Bridge 13 – Oh, I forgot that 13 is now Teft’s. But yes, side eyeing Rial hard.
I can’t link to it from work, but Botanic Xu created a beautiful piece of art about Dalinar and his teachers. It really drives home the “wrapped three times” quote.
@8: Yes, I would like to know what Vasher dreams. And yes, Stormlight is much easier to eat up than part of human soul.
@18: Kadash could have tutored Adolin as a boy because Adolin was with his father for years during the Veden War. The term “boy” is loser. I don’t recall the term “teenager” being used in these books. So you have “children” and “adults”, not all the stages we have in modern 1st world cultures.
My “side-eyeing” of Rial has to do with wondering if he is Wayne…
Kadash did what he had to do to come to terms with his past. If he gives up on Vorinism it would probably break him. I suspect he will go to his grave defending it.
@22 whitespine
the wax and wayne books take place after stormlight 1 through 5. Sorry to burst your bubble :(
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127-salt-lake-city-comiccon-2017/#e5085
@John, #15:
It killed him. Seriously, doing that killed Leras.
BTW, everyone saw the pun in the chapter title, right? The song title?
soursavior@19, As Sarrow@14 pointed out, it was Cultivation that stepped in to take care of Dalinar not Nightwatcher.
Soooo……New rules? A real puzzle.
On Kadash tutoring Adolin: My understanding of the narrative is Kadash tutored Adolin in Vorinism, religion and probably other things usually taught by Ardents: not sword fighting nor soldering. This comes from WoK, when Adolin visits Ardent Kadash during the girth saddle investigation. Kadash refers to him as “Bright One” which is considered “acceptable” because Kadash tutored him as a “boy”.
Hence, knowing Kadash didn’t become an Ardent until the Rift, which happened when Adolin was 12, then he truly didn’t have much time to learn everything, enough, to be allowed to tutored Adolin.
My questioning was a supplement to Birgit’s above comments wondering how Kadash learned everything to raise high in just 10 years… Not only did he learn everything in 10 years, not only did he raise high, he also tutored Adolin. I wonder how he had the time to do all of this. I always assumed Kadash had been an Ardent for much longer than just 10 years.
Also, what happens to Adolin tasking Kadash to find him information on the Radiants back in WoR? Another loose end?
On the matter of the word “boy”, a lot of older characters refer to Adolin as “boy” even in the present day narrative, but Adolin never thinks of himself as a “boy”. He thinks of himself as a “man”, an older man even. So when Adolin says he was a “boy”, I took it he meant when he was much younger.
I think the Thrill was created by Odium for the Alethi. They are the warriors for the planet and just who you would want if you were taking over during a desolation.
Oaths are tricky. The phrase, “the devil’s in the details” was made for oaths. They can end up causing exactly the opposite effect of what the oath taker may have intended. Also not all spren are as controlled by oaths as the honor spren. Some of the other orders have much more leeway in interpretation. I’d guess that is why many spren don’t like the cryptics. The hard oath believers (absolutists) and the soft oath believers (relativists).
@28 goddessimho
So just for a geek moment, Dungeons and Dragons term RAW and RAI, which means Rules As Written vs Rules As Intended lol.
@26 I know that now that I’ve finished the book. Just trying to explain what my impression was at the time. Cultivation doesn’t have to follow Nightwatcher’s rules so it makes sense.
I love Dalinar’s story about the Takama. It rings true to me. I believe we should ALWAYS challenge our own preconceptions. Even my own most firmly held beliefs I like to challenge them with evidence otherwise time and time again and see if I can uphold them. And I have changed my mind of my opinions as well.
I found the word “beefy” jarring in a story where beef doesn’t exist and the word isn’t otherwise used. I know it’s a Rosharan-to-English translation, but there are many other slang terms for a big, muscular person, ones that wouldn’t feel out of place. I’ve heard that the term can also mean “fat,” in which case “porky” might have been appropriate in Roshar terms, but that doesn’t seem to describe Aratin.
Color metaphors are used on Earth, too, so Zahel’s utterance of one wouldn’t have gotten my attention if I hadn’t been told who he was and also read Warbreaker before Oathbringer.
I probably said this already, but I’m glad the story didn’t follow the first-time-reader hypothesis that Dalinar was cursed (blessed?) to forget “his wife” and that his returning memories of his former wife meant he would begin forgetting about his current wife. Navani has suffered and lost so much already.
Soulcasting food into existence, soulcasting waste out of existence. Two ways the armies in the barren Shattered Plains managed to stay there for years. Stormlight Archive is high on my Spectrum of Fantasy Food-System Realism — even though the food systems are very different from Earth and in this case require magic, they’re well-explained and realistic within the setting, to a greater degree than a lot of fantasy I’ve read. (I’m a bit fascinated by the subject)
CireNaes @23 – “Kadash did what he had to do to come to terms with his past. If he gives up on Vorinism it would probably break him. I suspect he will go to his grave defending it.” By the end of the book, he’s started researching history. My hope is that he will be one of the few ardents to really dig in and try to find out where Vorinism is true and where it’s been altered. I just hope that what he finds doesn’t mess him up too badly. Back in TWoK, he talked a lot about the errors of the Hierocracy; I’d like to see him realize that they not only withheld information from the common people, they also altered the information that was extant at the time. If he can go back farther, he might find something truly helpful.
Carl @25 – As far as I know, there’s no pun intended with the title. It’s a direct quote from Dalinar’s story; that’s why it was suggested, and that’s why it was used. An old tradition isn’t necessarily right… which is one of the many lessons in this chapter.
@many re: Kadash training Adolin – I just did a complete search of TWoK and WoR, and it’s never specifically stated what was studied during that training. It could be that he studied religion, politics, etc. with ardents while he was in Kholinar, and then studied soldiering with the elites while on campaign with Dalinar. Obviously he would have done swordsmanship training in both places; perhaps with Zahel in Kholinar, and with Kadash on campaign. Since we first met Kadash as an ardent, it was easy to assume that he must have taught Adolin the things that we expect ardents to teach, but it’s not necessarily true.
Alternatively, it could be a continuity error that we all missed.
AeronaGreenjoy @32 – You reminded me of something I forgot to address in the post!
So… what do they soulcast feces into? I’m pretty sure coprolite doesn’t have any major use case, so probably not stone. Do we even want to know?
Also, that theory about Dalinar forgetting “his wife” just about drove me nuts. I knew it wasn’t true, and I also didn’t like it as a theory if I hadn’t known. But I didn’t dare say much!
@Alice, I think they soulcasted the feces into smoke. It couldn’t be preshaped into anything for stone. I would hope it’s not transformed into food, that was rocks. So that leaves oils or smoke.
I remember having a stray thought about a soulcaster slowly turning into a pile of poop, but then remember they transform into what they create. Not the base material they transform.
Stone might not be very useful, but at least it wouldn’t spread disease and suchlike. Smoke works too, I guess, if it’s not dangerous for people in the vicinity to breathe.
I don’t have a lot to add this week, but I was one of the readers who did not know Dalinar’s wife’s name before reading this chapter, and it really was awesome to read. The reveal was so well done. It delighted me almost just as much this time as it did the first time. Braid_Tug, you were absolutely right to try to let as many people as possible enjoy this scene as intended!
I don’t know if this comment belongs here or the next chapter, but one of my biggest annoyances with Oathbringer was the fact that Brandon would end a chapter like this with SUCH a big revelation and then skip a chapter before going into the appropriate flashback chapter. It happened 3 or 4 times at least in the book and it bothered me every time.
Was chapter order discussed in beta reads, or is that not part of the process?
In regards to Rial: I think that the “pale for an Alethi” comment signifies that he’s a worldhopper. Commenting on differences of appearance usually signify that. We should definitely keep an eye on him.
@Braid_Tug(34):
Remember Shallan’s mishap? They could soulcast it into blood … wouldn’t that be a big improvement?
Wetlander/Alice: I know you’re around my age, you must have heard the song “Knock Three Times [on the Ceiling” uncountably many times, same as me. I’m sure it isn’t a deliberate reference but as soon as I saw the chapter title I read it as “rap three times” and the association just would not go away.
Continuing to think about Zahel/Warbreaker … he is a very, very experienced Returned, a Sliver of Endowment. As with his control of his appearance and such, he probably has better control of/understanding of the dreams than the Hallandren Court of Gods. A Sliver, he’s the equal of a Herald, though he has the ability to conceal his Returned Breath. You have to think at least Cultivation and maybe Odium know he’s there. (BWS once said that the Lord Ruler would have sensed it if a Sliver came to Scadrial, IIRC.) Possibly Hoid would recognize him? Vasher is sneaky, Hoid is even older (at least chronologically). Actually they might get along. They both use lots of different names, they’re both millennia old, they both Worldhop. Hoid can’t kill anyone and Vasher has killed lots of people, though.
“I can’t help wondering when and why they [Vasher and Nightblood] got separated, but I don’t think we’re going to get that answer for a while yet.”
Perhaps we’ll be blessed with a reunion in the next book, since Seth has joined with Dalinar.
@33 Beefy implies muscle while porky implies fat so using pork as a substitute wouldn’t work. That being said I wonder if just using muscly instead of beefy would have been ok?
I would like to add a comment to the whole Vasher irreverence thing. As has been mentioned in other posts, Zahel/Vasher is a Returned. He is also, so far as we know, the OLDEST Returned still Breathing. Why does this matter in this context? Because what we are actually discussing is the MYTHOLOGY of Vorinism.
As a Returned, Vasher was worshipped as a god for centuries. Because he has been around so long, he got to see the mythologies of Warbreaker, Kalad and The Five grow and change. He knows how little mythology can resemble the truth, so why would he express any reverence towards the mythology of another world?
@42Fijjit
Zahel/Vasher was also on Roshar before, which is why Nightblood was created. To emulate shardblades. So he could have been hanging around Roshar when Vorinism was started and know the truth behind all the mythology. Much like someone in the know hearing high imperial spoken at an official setting lol
Gepeto @18:
Yea, I think that Kadash tutoring Adolin has been retconned into him doing it as an officer in an upcoming Dalinar’s flashback chapter. It was indeed implied in WoK that he was already an ardent during Adolin’s childhood. Generally, quite a few events concerning Kholins seem to have been changed from WoK to OB – like when Dalinar was tempted to murder his brother (10 years prior to WoK to 28 or so years), when Dalinar became familiar with in-world WoK – half a year previously to 5 or so years previously, when Gavilar started to transform from a warlord – from a couple of years prior to his death to 3 or so decades, etc.
And now Kadash is presented as a truly extraordinary man, who had managed to catch up to his education and rose up in ardentia very quickly. Which is particularly notable since he specialises in Vorin doctrine as an ardent, rather than in an area where his previous experience as a field officer could have mitigated his late start. Nor was he a close friend of Dalinar as a soldier, so it doesn’t seem like his rise was accelerated to please a powerful patron. Of course, Sanderson _did_ have Dalinar writing a book only a couple of weeks after he started to learn his letters… so he may not be wholly aware of the difficulty of acquiring literacy as an adult. At least, Dalinar might be able to cheat with his Connection magic – Kadash would have had to start from scratch and quickly surpass people who had been studying from a young age.And yea, it seems that Kadash didn’t fulfill Adolin’s request concerning information about the Radiants… though he may be extra motivated to gather it now.
BTW, speaking of ardents – they try to teach people not to succumb to the Thrill – Dalinar briefly mentions some kind of meditation technic at some point and how it is not for him. This could be a garbled relic of whatever method that a Radiant mentioned in one of Dalinar’s visions?
I am skeptical of Rial as a worldhopper – he is not short and isn’t perceived as having Shin blood. Paleness could come from admixture of foreign blood. And he’d have to be a truly inept one to become and remain a bridgeman. Definitely not Wayne, who is on the shorter side even for a Scadrian, and, of course, chronology doesn’t fit as Scath @24 already mentioned…
Aerona Greenjoy @32:
Yea, I am with you re: beefy. That seemed almost as jarring as Shallan’s allergy in WoK… I actually completely missed Zahel’s identity as a Nalthian worldhopper in WoR, because in Warbreaker they don’t actually use any colorful metaphors. But yea.
P.S.:
Carl @39:
While Vasher is a Sliver of Endowment, the Returned aren’t as powerful as the Heralds, IMHO. Also, he is very good at hiding his nature, so if Cultivation knows about him, it is likely because he tried to get a boon from the Nightwatcher or something along these lines. Odium probably doesn’t know about him. Scadrial is pretty unique in that it and everything on it was created by only 2 Shards, so a Sliver of one of the other 14 would really stand out. But on planets that existed pre-Shattering, like Roshar, there is investiture of all of the 16 present, though Honor and Cultivation would have substantially more than everybody else and Odium more than the rest. Therefore it should be possible for a relatively low-powered Sliver like Vasher not to attract the resident Shards’ attention.
Scath @43:
Vasher isn’t _that_ old. Vo, the First Returned lived 600 or so years before Warbreaker and Vasher Returned some unknown time later. It is possible that he visited Roshar during the fall of Hierocracy and the Sunmaker’s conquest, but certainly not before the emergence of early Vorinism.
* snickers quietly at scath’s high imperial reference *
@44: I agree it does seem like Brandon retconned the Adolin/Kadash’s relationship as it most certainly was imply the later taught the former the basis of Vorinism. Moreover, Kadash quizzes Adolin on the Hierocracy and seems disappointed Adolin remembers so little of his lessons. Thus, while Alice is totally right in saying it never were explicitly stated, it however was presumed. It is never implied anywhere within he flashbacks Kadash had any hand in tutoring Adolin anything. I can however live with this retcon due to the ambiguity of the situation: I just found it odd.
I am much more troubled by how Brandon completely re-wrote Adolin’s backstory, erasing every single quotes, within both WoK/WoR, where he speaks of never having wanted to be a soldier, where he explains he only became one after Gavilar’s death and out of necessity. Thoughts which were also confirmed within Dalinar’s own viewpoint, but were completely retconned for Oathbringer. Now, it seems, Adolin has been a soldier since his early childhood. He was never reticent, worst he’s the one who led the Kholin armies onto the Shattered Plains. Adolin has a few quotes where he speaks of his admiration for the “true soldier”, an ideal he compares himself to unfavorably, but an ideal which implies he’s always wanted to be…. this true soldier. This complete re-writing of Adolin’s character sincerely bothered me.
I also agree about the “moment where Dalinar nearly killed Gavilar” not happening during the right time frame. I had this conversation recently with another reader and we both came to the conclusion there perhaps was another event which the flashbacks didn’t retell. I did however took note of it and I did find it odd, so you aren’t the only one who noticed this.
You raise a valid point in saying Brandon has made his adult characters learn how to read way too fast… I recall how a local public personality once came out of the closet to admit his own inability to read/write. He explained how he did try to learn, as an adult, but just couldn’t master it. He spoke of how hard it was and this is a man who was schooled (though not long), who has a basic understanding of reading/writing (he certainly knows which way to hold a book and letters are making sounds). Now, for someone like Dalinar, who has zero basic knowledge of reading/writing, to start writing his own books two weeks after learning is just not plausible. Just holding the pencil and learning how to trace the letters should take him much time. When you never worked with pencils, it is very hard to master. So yeah, this one goes hand in hand with Kadash raising high in Vorinism after 10 years considering he started up illiterate.
Adolin’s request, like much else, fell into the cracks. Why write Adolin make the request and then ignore it all together? This is just odd…. I feel much better with OB now I am re-reading it, but the fact is Brandon created so many loose ends which aren’t going to be tied, it’s really difficult some times. Of course, not everything can be significant, but just one sentence to close the loop on that one would have been appreciated.
On another set of ideas, the beefy comment didn’t bother me. I didn’t catch it wasn’t usual for Roshar: I honestly was too busy giggling over Aratin Khal. I thought the character’s physical description was hilarious and I didn’t think much beyond it.
Anyone have any ideas as to what Honorblades might grant its user, other than the surges?
#44, @Isilel: you just implied that Kadash is a proto-Radiant, you know. He’s certainly broken.
Why couldn’t pre-disillusionment Kadash have been very devout? That might even be why he and Dalinar weren’t closer. It isn’t only Ardents who know stuff about Vorinism. There’s no reason to think he started learning about the religion from scratch.
#46 @Gepeto: Dalinar could read and write before. He just didn’t call it “reading and writing.” The idea that the glyphs aren’t really writing is totally artificial. Certainly he knew how to use writing implements.
@48: Carl: There is one particular passage, in WoR, where Dalinar pretends to read and holds the book upside down. We are talking of someone starting from far-away. Also, there is absolutely no mention of Dalinar being proficient in glyphs reading: he might know a few, but the only men having used glyphs in a similar way to actual reading/writing at Stormwardens. Shallan mentions it is close to blasphemous they would be doing this.
Dalinar is no Stormwarden. Knowing a handful of glyphs doesn’t make him have “valid reading/writing” experience which justifies him mastering within such a short lapse of time. I have seen children learning how to read: it takes time! A lot of time and effort and no, it isn’t faster for adults, it is usually much slower.
Learning how to read it really hard. It is hard for children, imagine how hard it is for adults. Hence, two weeks and Dalinar is already at ease enough to write sentences, not really plausible.
@Gepeto just checking are you talking an adult learning to read and write in a different language from their nafive, or learning to read and write in the their native language? From what I have researched, learning to read and write in your own language as an adult is actually quite quick and full proficiency can be attained in months. It’s learning a different language that takes years and dalinar is learning his own language.
@50: I mean learning how to read/write your own language. An-alphabetic individuals can struggle at learning how to read/write especially given they were usually taught as children, but failed to learn. As you say, proficiency can be attained in a few months. Is it anywhere stated proficiency can realistically be attained within two weeks of time?
The two weeks time frame Brandon gave for Dalinar to not only learn how to read/write, but to also manage to write a book, a feat very few literate people will ever achieve, is precisely what is being debated. How realistic is it for Dalinar, a man which hasn’t shown by his superior intellect (by this I mean Dalinar is not a genius), a man having no prior experience with reading/writing, a man who probably never held a pen before, to have mastered enough of the reading/writing to sit down and write a full book after a mere two weeks of “training”?
Also, a few months is usually what it takes children to learn how to read. I certainly never heard of anyone learning how to read within two weeks except a minority of gifted kids who does it by themselves. In my personal experience, the greater majority of children will required the 6 months time frame (approximately, it could be less) to be able to write short sentences and read easy stories. I can see how it could be faster for an adult, but seriously just mastering the grammar, it takes time! Once a kid knows how to read/write, they don’t automatically know how to make a decent sentence. And the orthographic, the punctuation, the grammar: children spend years learning all of that.
How can Dalinar know it all after two weeks? He can’t know how to write sentences properly nor how to properly write words nor how to apply the grammar. At best, he can decode simple words and very easy sentence, but nothing complex enough to be featured in a book. Even if Navani reads behind him to correct the mistakes, she would basically be re-writing the whole thing.
Is there any real-life examples of averaged intelligence 50-something individuals who do what Dalinar did within two weeks?
@Gepeto not argueing with you. Just from what I’ve researched, a full grown adult with knowledge of their language helps them conprehenc syntax and sentence structure which acvelerates their learning of reading and writing. Proficiency in months involves complex word structure. What dalinar is doing is writing a few pages and having navani correct him. That is not full proficiency. Also keep in mind he is a bondsmith that by touch alone gains connection to learn a language immediately. Just things to keep in mind.
I know this off topic but with the things we have learned about the Alethi in the flashbacks recently is anyone else seeing them as looking somewhat Mongolian? OK Mongolian with a Blue-Eyed caste, but still?
For Dalinar’s reading and writing – I think I remember from the Warbreaker annotations that Brandon knew Susebron picked up good grammar and spelling too quickly, but it was necessary for the story to be readable. Perhaps that is what is happening here?
Personally, I just assumed he had Navani helping. Perhaps he told her what he wanted to write and then she could spell out words he couldn’t spell on his own for him, etc. The speed of learning doesn’t really bother me since I can admit I forget the timeline in world all the time, plus I can accept really fast learning to be something of the Bondsmiths due to the aforementioned ability to connect with people.
Wet@33
It’s a nice thought. I would like that to happen too. My suspicion is that pealing back the layers of duplicity will only sharpen his pain to the point of delusional insanity. He has fully embraced the absolution from shame that Vorinism offered him, divine justification for all his actions done in service of the Blackthorn. To give that peace up after attaining it? Man alive, I don’t know that Kadash would survive the transition. So he strikes me as a ticking tragedy, unless Cultivation gets ahold of him. Dalinar begged for forgiveness. Kadash seems to have done the same. Their similar desire attained through alternate means will likely be brutally highlighted in the final result.
@Gepeto
Dalinar, however, is a Sliver of [something], having Ascended. His power of Connection lets him learn a storming foreign language in literally seconds, Gepeto. Yes, it only lasts a few days, but given how new Radiant abilities seem to be first unconscious and clumsy, then conscious and awkward, then natural and instinctive, I can certainly see him accidentally absorbing reading/writing from Navani and other scribes with Connection, just as he and Kaladin both used to heal themselves with Stormlight without knowing it.
I didn’t mean to imply that he was fully literate, just that he was not ignorant of the basics of written language, and also that he wasn’t a first-time stylus user. He mentions the “old trick” of generals writing a glyph using a spanreed. He knows it because he was a general.
51:
To write one short introductory chapter of a book. Actually the first draft of one short chapter of a book. I’m a nonfiction writer myself. I could knock that out in my spare time in two weeks with no problem and it wouldn’t require Investiture or Connection.
This being Vasher’s last appearance so far (I think), let me mention: he’s going to be very interested in Dalinar’s redemption. Let us not forget that Vasher also killed his own wife, only he did it on purpose.
@57 Carl
Oh, good point there woth Vasher and his wife! Conm to think of it, he did it to prevent a glabal military disaster – a continued Manywar. And with Dalinar, less so with Evi, and more so with Gavilar, we have a person Dalinar much cared about who was going to bring great conflict to the planet. They have much to discuss, those two. It would be fait to say that both are also Slivers now, right?
I am actually curious how many other Shards are influencing events pretty strong, if indirectly, on Roshar? With Nightblood, Vivenna and Vasher, we have a strong representation from Endowment. I’ve wondered before if the reason why Endowment started sending the Returned back was more interplanetary, than global – so rather than to avoid Manywars, she allowed them to come into being in spite of such possibility, in order to influence events on Roshar far into the future. From her letter to Hoid (and ftom the rough draft, unofficial ending for WoA), I gotbthe impression that there are other Shards outvthere acting in concert.
Btw, just to finish off the unusual Radiants list – totally forgot Venli! Now that is something unique – bonding a Listener, capturibg a voidspren!
Also, just finished Edgedancer. Two points to make here – I forgot that Wyndle bonded Lift pretty much against his will at the direction of the Ring. And that I much prefer to read her from first person PoV – so much more interesting, imho, to get that internal monologue and unreliable narration to complement her actions.
Re political debates and respect, I think that inncase of negotiation, Dalinar, and others, need to be, first and foremost, pragmatic – take the approach that works best, whether that is through respect or ignoring someone, or antagonizing, etc (cf Rysn’s travels, though there was an undertone of respect throughout, still). If it helps Dalinar to focus and think clearly – go for it. Especially as the queenbdoes not see what else he is doing simultaneously.
I wonder where Zahel goes afterwards (and Rlain). Do you reckon both will find whatever theyvset out to do? I have a feeling that Rlain will meet Thude and co (Eshonai’s Listener escapees) in the meantime, butvI have no feel for what Zahel wants to do,any ideas?
Aw man, you guys are scaring me a bit regarding Kadash. I find his character really interesting and has a lot of interesting potential (perhaps in some ways parallel to Vivenna’s journey) – I hope it doesn’t break him too badly.
commenting so that this will be part of my conversations.
Re: Dalinar learning to read & write – one thing no one has mentioned yet is that the women’s script is 100% phonetic, so Dalinar doesn’t have to learn to spell – just read/write the correct sounds. On top of that, the “letters” are grouped in a mostly logical way, which makes learning the sound/symbol match-ups pretty straightforward. It’s not like English, where we have 71 phonograms to make 43 sounds; the women’s script has 25 letters that make 25 sounds, roughly. There may be a few more sounds – like both long and short vowels – but for the most part, if you can say it you can spell it. (Why can’t English be so reasonable? Instead, we have letter combinations like “ough” that make six different sounds. Oy.)
Anyway, given the logic of the script, plus the fact that he had a very specific reason to want to learn it as quickly as possible, I don’t have a problem with him learning it in three weeks (not two, he specifically says three), without any need for Bondsmith abilities. On top of that, no one is claiming that he’s writing quickly – according to the text, he spent an hour writing a piece of text that’s a total of 177 words long. I’ve written more than that in the last ten minutes, including the time it took to look up the women’s script information and reread the section from Chapter 122 about Dalinar beginning his book.
ETA: and proofread it, too.
In a language like Spanish with a closer correspondence of sounds and letters than English it still takes time to learn to write. No real language is perfectly logical, and there is still punctuation. There are also typographic conventions like paragraphs or the comments the women add between the lines. The glyphs seems to be logographic, not phonetic. Already knowing them might be confusing instead of helpful. Dalinar’s language magic is the best explanation how he learns so quickly.
While everyone else has brought forward interesting arguments, I tend to side with @62 Birgit on this on. I find it hard to believe a language could be so simple it can be learned so fast and while I definitely agree there always are exceptional individuals who ace learning in a quick and efficient manner, Dalinar never struck me as one of those people. I have, however, no issue on Renarin learning by himself, I find it totally plausible for a smart young man with a lot of spare time and little to occupy himself.
Dalinar… My thoughts are Brandon needed to have Dalinar start writing his book by the end of OB for the story to hold itself. He however couldn’t say “six months later”. He also probably plans for the book to be finished by the time we start ook 4, so he’s giving Dalinar one year to work on it which is doable given the fact Dalinar does have a lot of free time too (apart from short meetings, he doesn’t seem to be doing much).
So this was probably the best Brandon could do within the scope of the narrative, but as a reader it irked me some. It is hard to find it plausible, three weeks later, Dalinar would know enough to start writing his book, even if he goes very slow, even if Navani corrects him whenever needed. Doing homework with my eldest highlighted just how difficult it is to learn to translate one’s thoughts into sentences: this is just not that easy, hence for Dalinar to be able to do it so fast, is just, well, fast.
Another explanation is Brandon, being a literate individual, is surrounded by highly literate proficient individuals and, as such, perhaps has a screwed up vision of how long it really takes to learn how to read.
I will always remember this Reddit thread where someone asked if 9-10 years old was OK to start reading SA which was met with an astonishing number of people agreeing it was fine and speaking of how THEY could read difficult books at a young age. I especially took note of the moment where Peter jumped in and spoke of how his own daughter could read Harry Potter at a very young age.
I felt so sorry for my own kid who could only manage to reading age appropriate books which, at the time, had about 2-3 sentences per page. Now at almost 8, Harry Potter is still WAY too hard: too many words, too many sentences. And the fonts are really small on those pages… We are definitely not there yet and probably won’t be there yet until a few more years. And my kid is not anywhere near flunking her grade.
So huh, maybe in Brandon’s experience, it is normal for people to learn how to read very fast. Sometimes, when you are gifted yourself and when everyone else around you is gifted too, you tend not to realize other people just have to work a bit harder to achieve the same.
I am agree that when you are gifted it can be hard to realize that things that come easy to you are hard for other people. Personal example. I will often read multiple books at a time and I have been able to easily keep them straight in my head. I used to think this was something ANYBODY could do. It wasn’t until MULTIPLE people told me how AMAZING a talent this was that it sunk in for me how unusual this gift of mine is. Even now that I know it is unusual on an INTELLECTUAL level I still have trouble comprehending it on an EMOTIONAL level.
That being said it’s not a looking down on people for not being able to do it, for there are plenty of things that I struggle with that come to others easily. SO I think i can relate to them that that way we ALL have things we can do, and we all have things we can’t do. You just treat others how you would want to be treated in such a situation. At least that’s how I try to approach things.
Sorry I got of on a bit of a tangent. Possibly relevant, given the portrayal of characters on different parts of the autism spectrum by Brandon Sanderson is his books, but I should probably make I note that I was official diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome which has since been grouped into the Autism spectrum.
P.S. I hope we can eventually start a reread of the Mistborn books (though it will probably have to be one book at a time) so we can eventually cover Steris. I really loved her development in Bands of Mourning as I started to relate to her despite the fact that she is a woman and I am a man, simply because of how well someone with Asperger’s syndrome was portrayed. I am even having my own little Wax and Wayne reread to go back and see if I can pick up earlier foreshadowing that hints at her having it since the beginning.
P.P.S. Sorry for rambling again. Maybe somebody somewhere can start a seperate thread just so we can talk about this subject?
Paulo Freire in 1962 taught 300 adult sugarcane workers to read and write with full proficiency in just 45 days using the Freirean Approach. The two most distinctive features of the Freirean Approach are dialogue and problem posing. Frreire describes dialogue as the “I-thou relationship between two subjects” in which both parties confront each other as knowledgeable equals in a situation of genuine two-way communication (Freire, 1973, pg 52). Teachers possess knowledge of reading and writing; students possess knowledge of the concrete reality of their culture. As with advocates of other humanistic teaching approaches, Freirean educators vehemently reject what Freire has termed “the banking concept of education,” where the teacher’s primary role is to transmit knowledge to students, “depositing” information into students as they would deposit money into a bank (Freire, 1970, 1973; Graman, 1989; Auerbach and Burgess, 1985). Instead, Freirean education is a mutual process of reflecting upon and developing insights into the students’ evolving culture. The lecture format, where the teacher talks and the students passively receive information, is replaced by the “culture circle” where teachers and students face one another and discuss issues of concern in their own lives (Freire, 1970, 1973).
That sounds an awful like how Navani is teaching Dalinar to read and write about his life.
The US Department of Education defines three forms of literacy. Prose Literacy, Document Literacy, and Quantitative Literacy. Prose Literacy is defines as: “the knowledge and skills needed to search, comprehend, and us information from continuous texts”. This would be the form of literacy Dalinar is concerned with to write a book. The levels of Prose Literacy are defined as: “At the Basic level, rates 210 to 264, adults are able to reach and understand information in short, commonplace prose texts. At the intermediate level, rates 265 to 339, adults are able to read and understand moderately dense, less commonplace prose texts as well as summarize, make simple inferences, determine cause and effect, and recognize author’s purpose. At the Proficient level rates 340 to 500, adults are able to read lengthy, complex, abstract prose texts as well as synthesize information and make complex inferences.
In (as wetlandr pointed out), three weeks (half the duration Paulo Freire used to teach full proficiency), Dalinar has basic literacy to understand information in continuous texts, to write his own, while being assisted and corrected in his drafts by Navani.
So as requested, real world examples that match with the time line, with definitive definitions of terms.
edit: To expand further with my own experiences. I am very proficient in my own english language. My wife is bilingual, working on becoming trilingual. The english language sentence structure is ordered in a certain way. Conversely spanish has the sentence structure in a different order. For me to learn reading and writing in spanish, I have to change the way I think. Frequently I am so slow because if someone says something to me in spanish, I have to mentally translate it into english, then come up with the english response, and then translate that back into Spanish. My wife however, who already is fluent in spanish, has a much better capability and speed in learning japanese because the sentence structure (order) is similar. So she just has to think in word order like she does with spanish. And that is with learning a whole new language. This is learning to read and write in his own language.
Maybe Dalinar took a Hooked on Phonics spanreed course?
I’m seriously tempted to spend the next two weeks learning to write in women’s script just to prove it can be done. As I said before, Dalinar doesn’t have to learn spelling, because it’s phonetic, and there are only 25 characters to learn. I’m betting that in less than two weeks, I can write a 200-word statement within an hour, without reference to visual aids.
Of course it might not have the proper women’s-script punctuation, because we haven’t been given that yet. But y’all seem to keep ignoring the fact that his hour-long effort to write 177 words was not perfect – no one said he was reading or writing fluently. He was able to do enough to get his thoughts down, and then Navani came along and corrected things for him, and then he rewrote it to incorporate her mark-ups where he’d screwed up.
He’s not learning a foreign language, he’s not learning sentence structure, he’s not learning spelling, he’s not even learning the nuances that go into the writing of someone truly proficient. He had to ask how to emphasize a word, and makes it very clear that there are a lot of details in presentation he still has to learn. What he did in three weeks was learn how to write down what he wanted to say, however clumsily and poorly punctuated. I don’t find that improbable.
Fun fact. Brandon Sanderson traveled to Korea as a missonary. While Korea has one of the SPOKEN languages for outsiders to learn once you know how to speak it it is easy to learn it’s WRITTEN language because the consonants are shaped after the shape your mouth makes in order to make each sound. I wonder if the Korean written language may influence the Alethi women’s script?
If hypothetically as people have been saying, Kadash “breaks” from finding the origin of the current incarnation of his religion, anyone have any theories on what spren he might attract/knight radiant he might become? (disclaimer, yes I know this does not automatically mean he will become one, yes I know breaking seems to not be the only way to attract a spren/become radiant. Yes I know a ton of the core people are becoming radiants. Yes I know we know very few actual details on the other order’s members to accurately predict what people would be enlisted to what order. Just saying it for the fun of it. Like going among your friends and applying a radiant order to each of them. Thinking the same of Kadash)
@69 given all the same caveats as you included, I’d say bondsmith. It would put him on a close to even footing with Dalinar so they can argue more. Also bondsmith seems so far to be the most closely tied to the spiritual realm and despite any testing of faith involved in the breaking, I think Kadash is someone who is trying to be closer to the spiritual rather than moving away from it.
@70 soursavior
Very true. His crisis of faith could play very well into growing into a role as pious and guiding. I also think he could be a dustbringer as their ideals are brave and obedient. At the very least he could have been a dustbringer while in the army serving the blackthorn lol.
@64: I didn’t mean to imply I felt Brandon’s team was being detrimental towards anyone. I meant to say there are times when we, as human beings, mis-evaluted items based on our own personal experience, out of not really noticing it is out of the ordinary. I find your personal example is precisely what I had in mind. You are partiularly good at reading multiple books at the same and you never realized not everyone was able to achieve the same, not until several people pointed it out to you. Hence, I have thought it is perhaps possible Brandon genuinely believed learning how to read/write within three weeks is perfectly normal and natural. It is possible he felt this way because most people in his entourage mastered reading/writing at a very quick pace.
@65: Thank you for the references, but Paulo Feire taught 300 adults how to read in 45 days, not 15 days like Dalinar… Even if the level he brought them to was potentially higher, 15 days remain, by all means, very fast.
I do not live in the States, but where I live, a functionally literate individual is one able to read the headlines onto the paper, but not the following article. This level is estimated to be the equivalent of a 4th grader. Now it’s been a while since I read this article, but either way, I find it hard to believe 15 days is all it took for Dalinar to went from illeteracy to functionally literate.
Also, Navani isn’t a linguistic researcher nor a teacher. I seriously doubt she has the equivalent abilities to teach Dalinar as efficiently as a man having had for purpose to find the best way to teach literacy to illeterate people.
Mind, it may be it is possible, but it isn’t very plausible.
@67: But you already know how to read… You already understand the concept of reading/writing. Learning how to master an alternate alphabet certainly wouldn’t be difficult, but we are speaking of learning every from step 0. I have seen how hard it is for kids to learn how to read, it takes them months to do what Dalinar does after 15 days. Of course, you’d expect an adult to learn faster, but still.
Hence, phonetic language or not, I still find the pace Dalinar’s learning was given hard to believe. It may be it really is possible, but considering Dalinar isn’t the smartest fish out of the pond and considering he’s a 50-something illeterate man, I have a very hard time finding it plausible.
This being said, this particular item was noted and raised by some readers. My thoughts are, if it were obviously plausible, then on one would be asking the question. 15 days is fast. No one can state it isn’t.
On Learning a Foreign Language: For those who are not aware of it, English is not my first language. Every time I read on Tor.com nor I answer to any of those posts, I actually do it within my second language, not my first. I could speak at length of my personal experience learning a second language, but huh I am not sure it would really be interesting.
I can however state, to reach proficiency, you absolutely need to think within the language you are interfacing with. As long as you rely on translation, you will not breach the second wall. The first wall is the one you breach once you reach basic conversation level. Many people never make it to the first wall.
On Kadash: I really hope some minor characters will not become Radiants nor squires. I am currently re-reading part 2 and I do get why some readers felt OB was a party of surgebinding as basically anyone could just utter the first oath next to Kaladin right before acquiring powers. It didn’t bother me upon the first read, but I find it very blatant on the second read.
Still, Kadash. We do not know much of him, his personality. I think I would need to read more of him to get an idea which order he could hypothetically fit in. The only one which comes to mind would be Truthwatcher… because it seems to fit. Being an Ardent does make him learned and more or less giving: he also is the odd one out. He does want the Truth, he agrees to research on the Radiants even if it blasphemous.
@71: Dustbringer are about wanting to break things open and see what is inside. So far, the only character we have met I feel fits the profile is… Balat.
@72 Gepeto
To reiterate as stated in my prior post, he taught full proficiency in 45 days. Dalinar does not have full proficiency yet. He has reached basic literacy as defined by the US Board of Education. Since you are referring to your own country, could you provide documentation on how your country defines levels of literacy? You requested real world examples, and I provided it with references. Could you provide references for your country? You are perfectly entitled to disbelieve. It is your right. I am merely asking for the references backing up your experiences. Regarding Navani, the process has been used by various instructors. It is a school of thought, not a defined step by step structure that must be followed in order to be successful. It states conversing with the student on equal terms, which Navani and Dalinar are doing. It states discussing the culture and life of the student, which the book Dalinar is writing is exactly that. Navani does not have to be a linguistic teacher in order to employ this process. I can use this process. The point of the process is approaching teaching reading in a different format that is more conducive to adult learning. Which it is, and she is doing. But again, feel free to disagree.
Wetlandr has shown information on how the women’s script operates. I understand based on what you observe, you disagree. But based on what she has presented on the woman’s script, I feel it is quite possible and plausible. But feel free to not find it plausible.
Dalinar is still learning his own language. Not a foreign one, which I feel is important in this situation
On Kadash, please re-read my post that i have copied below:
If hypothetically as people have been saying, Kadash “breaks” from finding the origin of the current incarnation of his religion, anyone have any theories on what spren he might attract/knight radiant he might become? (disclaimer, yes I know this does not automatically mean he will become one, yes I know breaking seems to not be the only way to attract a spren/become radiant. Yes I know a ton of the core people are becoming radiants. Yes I know we know very few actual details on the other order’s members to accurately predict what people would be enlisted to what order. Just saying it for the fun of it. Like going among your friends and applying a radiant order to each of them. Thinking the same of Kadash)
So I was asking just for kicks, what Radiant people could see him being if he could become a radiant. My question specifically asked that how people are breaking, whether or not breaking is required, whether how many main cast are radiants, and specifically any limitations (we have not seen the POV of a dustbringer, etc etc) not come into play. The question was fun conjecture based on the ideals. You think Truthwatcher. Great points. Balat could be a dustbringer. I think Kadash could be a dustbringer because he has been brave and obedient. This is not meant to be a debate on who is more right or wrong. Just throwing ideas out.
edit: I brought up the kadash post again because I was the only one to bring up becoming a radiant regarding him breaking due to disillusionment with his religion, so that is why I replied to you.
@72 I didn’t mean that he was. It’s a bad habit of mine I am so used to not being understood in the past that I often prexplain, or try to think of every possible argument to my point that comes up and get in a counterpoint ahead of time.
On another note what do you think about the idea of Alethi being similar to Korean
@76 BenW
Glyphs at least seem to be derived from arabic/hebrew. Check out this really interesting post that really goes into it!
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/68873-ob-creating-stormlight-glyphs-a-jordancon-workshop-with-isaac-stewart/
@72 on Kadash: I like where you’re coming from on this. Truthwatcher would have been my second choice, but I didn’t mention it because I was blanking on what they were called. It’s a great option for someone who tries to teach and nurture.
@77 Interesting. I thought in might be Korean because of how familiar Brandon was with it having spent time in Korea, but it turns out that’s not the case. My Bad. Also sorry about the double post.
Brandon shows his Korean experience influence in the short story Emperors Soul.
@Gepeto
#63:
Dalinar isn’t learning a language, just a script. You seem to think Dalinar was not just illiterate but mute before the end of Oathbringer. He’s entirely fluent in the language, he has even “read” the local equivalent of audiobooks (having women read to him). He just hadn’t learned phonetics. He has also been dictating documents (to be sent by spanreed), on-stage, throughout this very book, almost as if Sanderson anticipated this objection.
#72:
Actually she is a teacher. Think about what you wrote. It isn’t her entire career, but consider the existence of her many wards. Alethkar doesn’t use the same educational model as my own homeland (the USA) but Navani absolutely spends a lot of time teaching. She even meditates on it at one point in the book.
@EvilMonkey, #80:
And lots of other places. And lots of other Asian influences, as I have mentioned in other threads of various rereads (because I get into topics like this). Here’s one I haven’t: the Indian (Sanskrit-derived) title “Sri” would translate as “Brightness” or “Radiance”. The term is used through most of South Asia (but apparently not in Korea, which is of course not in South Asia).
Did I miss somewhere how Vashar was able to live in this world without consuming breath? That always annoyed me a bit…it would seem like if he can use the same magic he used on his world (which granted we don’t know if he can yet but we all seem to be assuming he can and we have seen Hoid basically do that right?) then he would have the same limitations wouldn’t he?
@@@@@82. dwcole He is able to use stormlight instead of breath to sustain himself. In fact, that is part of the reason why he came to Roshar to begin with. Relevant WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/21/#e4553
So, as I’m catching up on the reread, I realized something about Vasher. He’s been where Kaladin was in WoR– a kid new to his powers and in over his head–when he was a new Returned, before he became famous in any of his personas. He’s also been where Dalinar is: Memories lost to him (his life before he returned): a warlord responsible for countless deaths attempting to forge peace; and, as Carl pointed out in 57, he has also killed his wife. Not much of a contribution to the discussion, but something that jumped out at me when I read 57. Thanks, Carl!
I wanted to add more to the discussion about learning to write. Let’s start with an accurate timeframe. Three weeks on Roshar is 30 days which might as well be a month. You can’t compare children to adults. I’ve fully taught four children to read It does take them months but they haven’t learned how to learn the way adults have and I can spend about 30 minutes max with them per day before they get frustrated. My husband and I can work on foreign languages for hours on end if we have the time. We are currently working on Korean. We did have the writing down in only two weeks and by the end of the month we were familiar with the few spelling (or pronunciation) quirks. I really can’t imagine doing English as a foreign language though. Dalinar doesn’t need to learn how to organize his thoughts, he’s been doing that his whole life. He just needs to know how to translate the words he already has to script.
The part where she says Evi is done SO well in the graphic audio haha, Navani and Dalinars VAs are perfect and the music really adds to the sting and impact of the moment.
Honestly I can never go back to the books, for a decade or more the graphic audios have really been the definitive version for the cosmere and the closest we have to an adaptation, except it’s just 1:1 book readings haha. Regular audiobooks with one person can’t compare